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+--- Thread: Is it possible to implement nomic-style games in Ludii? (/showthread.php?tid=720)
Is it possible to implement nomic-style games in Ludii? - anonymouse - 09-24-2021
Quote:Nomic is a game in which changing the rules is a move. In that respect it differs from almost every other game. The primary activity of Nomic is proposing changes in the rules, debating the wisdom of changing them in that way, voting on the changes, deciding what can and cannot be done afterwards, and doing it. Even this core of the game, of course, can be changed.
— Peter Suber, The Paradox of Self-Amendment
Is something like this possible with Ludii either presently or planned in the future?
RE: Is it possible to implement nomic-style games in Ludii? - Eric Piette - 09-24-2021
Hi,
Yes, we already have move types to be able to vote and propose. That mechanism is available in Ludii since pretty much the first release. So if the game is just to be able to ask the other players if they want a new rule (between a pre-defined list of rules) or to remove a rule already in place, then to vote for it and add it or not that's possible.
The only problem I can see is a matter of graphical interface to do that, but we have a move ludeme called (note ...) to send a message to the others, so that's possible in it to have the rule in full English too, then with just a matter of different boolean variables (var "NameVariable") to activate or deactivate each specific rule.
However, if the question is if I plan to add it, the answer would be no, but if any of our users want to do it, that's completely possible yes.
Regards,
Eric
RE: Is it possible to implement nomic-style games in Ludii? - anonymouse - 09-24-2021
(09-24-2021, 06:58 AM)Eric Piette Wrote: Hi,
Yes, we already have move types to be able to vote and propose. That mechanism is available in Ludii since pretty much the first release. So if the game is just to be able to ask the other players if they want a new rule (between a pre-defined list of rules) or to remove a rule already in place, then to vote for it and add it or not that's possible.
Is it possible to add new rules while playing or is it limited to pre-defined rules? The reason I ask is that I would like to implement (or rather play) the game of Bartok which would require that level of reflection. I guess a workaround would simply to use a base game and simply iterate over chat between rounds.
RE: Is it possible to implement nomic-style games in Ludii? - Eric Piette - 09-27-2021
Hi,
You can not create complete new rules during the game, but if all these rules are pre-defined (whatever the size of the set of the rules you did when you design the game), that's possible.
Then it would require to implement all the votes/proposals about each rule and have a kind of variable to activate or deactivate each of these rules.
And something, in looking the game you are speaking about, it seems to be a card game, so if it requires card mechanisms, they are not implemented for the moment in Ludii, that's future work, I am going to do when at some point I will find the time, but I would expect not before next year at least.
Regards,
Eric
RE: Is it possible to implement nomic-style games in Ludii? - anonymouse - 09-27-2021
(09-27-2021, 07:39 AM)Eric Piette Wrote: You can not create complete new rules during the game, but if all these rules are pre-defined (whatever the size of the set of the rules you did when you design the game), that's possible.
So in the situation that I want a group to be able to dynamically generate rules (with no pre-defined rules), it would have to be played locally by editing a local .lud file?
(09-27-2021, 07:39 AM)Eric Piette Wrote: And something, in looking the game you are speaking about, it seems to be a card game, so if it requires card mechanisms, they are not implemented for the moment in Ludii, that's future work, I am going to do when at some point I will find the time, but I would expect not before next year at least.
The Wikipedia article fails to capture the abstraction possible of Bartok. The beginning as a card game is merely incidental. Bartok is essentially a game of cooperative and iterative game development. In the other thread concerning card games, it was stated that some of the core developers had their own personal card games implemented--was this as .lud files with ad-hoc mechanisms, or playing around deeper within Ludii itself?
RE: Is it possible to implement nomic-style games in Ludii? - Eric Piette - 09-28-2021
(09-27-2021, 01:05 PM)anonymouse Wrote: So in the situation that I want a group to be able to dynamically generate rules (with no pre-defined rules), it would have to be played locally by editing a local .lud file?
Yes, we can not modify the .lud file in the middle of the play.
The Wikipedia article fails to capture the abstraction possible of Bartok. The beginning as a card game is merely incidental. Bartok is essentially a game of cooperative and iterative game development. In the other thread concerning card games, it was stated that some of the core developers had their own personal card games implemented--was this as .lud files with ad-hoc mechanisms, or playing around deeper within Ludii itself?
Yes, I implemented some card mechanisms more than a year ago, but we are not happy with the description language and that code is not maintained since that time, so no guarantee and that will probably break if you try to use it. So for the moment, cards are not really supported but I plan to work (again) on them next year after some long discussions with the team to find a nice language for them.
Regards,
Eric