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+--- Thread: BlooGo (Blooms+Go) (/showthread.php?tid=490)
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BlooGo (Blooms+Go) - thorsilver - 03-06-2021
BlooGo is a variant of Go inspired by Nick Bentley's Blooms, which I saw proposed on the Life in 19x19 forums. That proposal didn't have a name, so I just gave it the name BlooGo as it seemed appropriate for this particular mashup. The rules are simple:
- Each player places one stone of their colour per turn on any empty point. Players may not pass.
- Unlike in Go, suicidal placements are allowed.
- Players may not repeat board positions.
- At the end of a player's turn, all enemy groups with no liberties are captured and removed from the board, and the player scores one point per stone captured in this way.
- The first player to reach a pre-defined score threshold wins the game.
My intent was to use this as a stepping-stone to implementing Blooms, but at this point I still have no earthly idea how to work with multiple colours per player in Ludii, so I've stalled on that for now. In the meantime I think BlooGo stands on its own as an enjoyable and elegant Go variant.
Just as an added point of interest, the Nordic Go Dojo proposes a similar variant as a way to teach new players the game of Go without the difficulties of expressing the concept of territory. BlooGo differs in how suicide and capture work, but I think it could also serve as an easy-to-understand intro to Go for new players. Also it's a straightforward introduction to Blooms, of course :)
RE: BlooGo (Blooms+Go) - Michael - 03-07-2021
Cool! Great work :)
Shouldn't Luis also be listed as author?
RE: BlooGo (Blooms+Go) - thorsilver - 03-07-2021
(03-07-2021, 10:37 AM)Michael Wrote: Cool! Great work :)
Shouldn't Luis also be listed as author?
Maybe? The post on Life in 19x19 just says he discussed it with Nick, it's not clear to me whether it was one or both of them in concert. I put Nick as author just because the rules are so close to Blooms, that's all.
I also took a bit of artistic licence by making the capture mechanism explicitly the same as Blooms, where only surrounded enemy groups are removed at the end of one's turn. That's not actually stated in that post, but it seemed more fun to port over the Blooms capture mechanics.
I'll send a note to Nick and see what he says.
RE: BlooGo (Blooms+Go) - thorsilver - 03-08-2021
(03-07-2021, 06:28 PM)thorsilver Wrote:(03-07-2021, 10:37 AM)Michael Wrote: Cool! Great work :)
Shouldn't Luis also be listed as author?
Maybe? The post on Life in 19x19 just says he discussed it with Nick, it's not clear to me whether it was one or both of them in concert. I put Nick as author just because the rules are so close to Blooms, that's all.
I also took a bit of artistic licence by making the capture mechanism explicitly the same as Blooms, where only surrounded enemy groups are removed at the end of one's turn. That's not actually stated in that post, but it seemed more fun to port over the Blooms capture mechanics.
I'll send a note to Nick and see what he says.
Nick confirms they both worked on the game, so I've updated the metadata to reflect that.
RE: BlooGo (Blooms+Go) - slimy_asparagus - 03-08-2021
(03-06-2021, 05:36 PM)thorsilver Wrote: My intent was to use this as a stepping-stone to implementing Blooms,.......Just to say I have been working on Blooms. I have two colours okay but the capturing does not work. I was going to report on my latest difficulties sometime soon but if you are interested I can send you my file. (I had not yet moved to the two turns a move but that bit is fairly easy.)
RE: BlooGo (Blooms+Go) - Eric Piette - 03-08-2021
Hi,
I have added that game to dev. It will be in the next release.
Regards,
Eric
RE: BlooGo (Blooms+Go) - thorsilver - 03-08-2021
(03-08-2021, 07:10 AM)slimy_asparagus Wrote:(03-06-2021, 05:36 PM)thorsilver Wrote: My intent was to use this as a stepping-stone to implementing Blooms,.......Just to say I have been working on Blooms. I have two colours okay but the capturing does not work. I was going to report on my latest difficulties sometime soon but if you are interested I can send you my file. (I had not yet moved to the two turns a move but that bit is fairly easy.)
Cool, I'd be happy to help if I can!
Can you send it via PM here, or by email?Also, thank you Eric for adding to Ludii!
RE: BlooGo (Blooms+Go) - Luis Bolaños - 03-08-2021
Hi, Luis here. Thanks for implementing this!
(03-06-2021, 05:36 PM)thorsilver Wrote: [*]Players may not repeat board positions.
[*]At the end of a player's turn, all enemy groups with no liberties are captured and removed from the board, and the player scores one point per stone captured in this way.
These rules are wrong, though.
My only goal with this variant was to do away with superko, so repetitions other than basic ko should definitely be allowed. The basic ko rule is still needed because ko occurs quite often and the scoring threshold inherently favors the player who is closer to winning.
Also, I don't want to use Blooms' delayed suicide rule here. It has a purpose in Blooms, but I think it makes no difference here, and it forces players to scan the whole board to make a legal move, which is impractical. I usually try to avoid rules that force players to perform secondary actions on their turns that are not connected to their main actions. My intended capture rule for this game is the same as in the Tromp-Taylor rules of Go: after a placement, first remove all enemy groups without liberties, and then remove all friendly groups that remain without liberties. Removed enemy groups score for you, and removed friendly groups score for your opponent.
RE: BlooGo (Blooms+Go) - thorsilver - 03-09-2021
(03-08-2021, 10:26 PM)Luis Bolaños Wrote: Hi, Luis here. Thanks for implementing this![*]
(03-06-2021, 05:36 PM)thorsilver Wrote: [*]Players may not repeat board positions.[*]
[*]At the end of a player's turn, all enemy groups with no liberties are captured and removed from the board, and the player scores one point per stone captured in this way.
These rules are wrong, though.
My only goal with this variant was to do away with superko, so repetitions other than basic ko should definitely be allowed. The basic ko rule is still needed because ko occurs quite often and the scoring threshold inherently favors the player who is closer to winning.
Also, I don't want to use Blooms' delayed suicide rule here. It has a purpose in Blooms, but I think it makes no difference here, and it forces players to scan the whole board to make a legal move, which is impractical. I usually try to avoid rules that force players to perform secondary actions on their turns that are not connected to their main actions. My intended capture rule for this game is the same as in the Tromp-Taylor rules of Go: after a placement, first remove all enemy groups without liberties, and then remove all friendly groups that remain without liberties. Removed enemy groups score for you, and removed friendly groups score for your opponent.
I used the Blooms capture rule here because it is one of the defining features of that game, and I thought perhaps it could open the door to other interesting variants. The post on the Life in 19x19 forums suggested to me that this was the natural way to proceed, given you mentioned Blooms as the inspiration for the variant.
I thought the Blooms-Go combo ruleset was unique and justified a solo implementation, but given that I misinterpreted things, I'm not sure this is suitable for inclusion in Ludii in this form. It might make more sense to include a general No-Pass Go implementation with a few variant rulesets within it, including the option for a capture threshold. Only the DLP team is able to submit .lud implementations with variant rulesets included though. Or if we think it's sufficiently different from other No-Pass Go variants then this could remain separate and I could do No-Pass Go as well.
What does everyone think?
RE: BlooGo (Blooms+Go) - Eric Piette - 03-10-2021
Hi,
That game is placed in our experimental category, so that's up to the designer if he wants this version (even if just a little bit different from Go) to be included in Ludii or not.
That's fine for us, the experimental category is there for this purpose, for people to play the game, gives some feedbacks to their designers/authors then we update the game if they want. And in the case of the game is published we move it to his real category (space, war, race, ...).
Regards,
Eric