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+--- Thread: Proposals (/showthread.php?tid=362)
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Proposals - slimy_asparagus - 01-11-2021
In Suffragetto, given appropriate conditions, either player may propose a prisoner release which the other player can either accept or reject.
In the reference manual I see a multitude of ludemes that might conceivably be helpful.
move Propose/is Proposed
move Vote
trigger/is triggered
set Pending/is Pending
is Decided
Obviously I tried "move Propose" as the solution given that "propose" is literally in the rules. However when tested it seems that "is Propose" is not cleared. This is an issue since there could be multiple prisoner releases proposed. It would be fine if there was a way of declaring the proposal resolved.
The wider problem is that I can find no explanation of these concepts in either the manual or the logic guide.
RE: Proposals - Eric Piette - 01-11-2021
Hi,
I will have to check the guide if I added a part to explain that yes.
But just to sum up here.
A proposition can be made in the state s. (with the ludeme (propose ...)).
Then in the state s+1, it can be vote by the player with the ludeme (vote ...).
Then when all the players have voted, the ludeme (is Decided ....) will tell if that specific decision got the votes of all the players to be decided.
As examples you can look the games Oware or Surakarta.
Regards,
Eric
RE: Proposals - slimy_asparagus - 01-11-2021
Eric,
Thanks for the response. Things are much clearer, but not quite clear enough.
So I have some follow up questions.
1. So "No" is always available as a response whatever the proposal. Correct?
2. What happens if one person votes "Yes" and another "No"? I am guess that in that case the proposal is not decided. Does that clear the "is Proposed" state?
3. What happens if only some people vote? I am guessing that should not be allowed in implementations and that in my case a "move Propose" should come with an automatic "then vote".
4. It seems from my quick experiment, that even after the proposal is decided and has been checked, the "is Decided" flag is still set. To me that looks like a limitation of Ludii that arises because in all the games you have which use proposal, accepting the proposal ends the game. This is not the case in Suffragetto.
Essentially I need a way of cleaning the proposal slate. As I understand the Suffragetto rules (they seem to be a little ambiguous), the player who proposes the release gets to decided how many are released (upto 6 each). The proposal would need to be cleared after the release process is complete.
RE: Proposals - Eric Piette - 01-12-2021
Hi,
1. No, the answer "No" is not always available. The proposals depends of what is in entry of the move (propose ...)
2. When all the players have voted, the proposals are cleared.
3. To make (is Decided ...) to be true with a specific proposal, a majority of the players have to vote for the same proposal.
4. see answer at 2.
Regards,
Eric
RE: Proposals - slimy_asparagus - 01-12-2021
(01-12-2021, 12:35 PM)Eric Piette Wrote: Hi,
1. No, the answer "No" is not always available. The proposals depends of what is in entry of the move (propose ...)
XXXX
In Oware you have the following code:
Code:
(if (is Proposed "End")
(or (move Vote "End") (move Vote "No"))[quote pid='1666' dateline='1610454959']
2. When all the players have voted, the proposals are cleared.
[/quote]
This is not what I am seeing, but I will need to produce a more workable test case.
RE: Proposals - slimy_asparagus - 01-13-2021
(01-12-2021, 12:35 PM)Eric Piette Wrote: 2. When all the players have voted, the proposals are cleared.
Eric,
I have a test script. It's behaviour somewhat matches what I saw in Suffragetto, but there are some things I don't understand. The biggest problem is that it gets stuck at "is Decided" and does not go back to a clean slate.
To see the behaviour propose and vote "Higher". I am not sure what happens when you propose lower, but it's not important.
RE: Proposals - Eric Piette - 01-14-2021
Hi,
Correction about the vote: Any vote can be done by any player at any time, so that's always possible to vote "No" or whatever you want. However to be decided, a proposal correction to what is in the (is Decided ...) has to be done in a previous turn, then be voted.
So to be clear: Even if the player can vote "No", if no proposal with "No" was done before, the (is Decided "No") can never be true.
And now clarification about (is Decided ...):
I checked once again, and yes all the proposals (and votes) are cleared when all the players have voted. However, I also see that the (is Decided ...) stayed true in the next turns. That was a bug. I just fixed it. So thanks for your simple example to reveal that problem, that was really useful. That fix will be available in the next release.
Regards,
Eric
RE: Proposals - slimy_asparagus - 01-14-2021
(01-14-2021, 08:43 AM)Eric Piette Wrote: Hi,Eric,
Correction about the vote: Any vote can be done by any player at any time, so that's always possible to vote "No" or whatever you want. However to be decided, a proposal correction to what is in the (is Decided ...) has to be done in a previous turn, then be voted.
So to be clear: Even if the player can vote "No", if no proposal with "No" was done before, the (is Decided "No") can never be true.
And now clarification about (is Decided ...):
I checked once again, and yes all the proposals (and votes) are cleared when all the players have voted. However, I also see that the (is Decided ...) stayed true in the next turns. That was a bug. I just fixed it. So thanks for your simple example to reveal that problem, that was really useful. That fix will be available in the next release.
Regards,
Eric
Thanks for the explanation and the update.
Nicholas
(01-14-2021, 08:43 AM)Eric Piette Wrote: And now clarification about (is Decided ...):Eric,
I checked once again, and yes all the proposals (and votes) are cleared when all the players have voted. However, I also see that the (is Decided ...) stayed true in the next turns. That was a bug.
Thinking about this some more I am not clear when (is Decided ..) goes from being true to false. Will it become like (is Pending ...), so you get one decision move to check it?
RE: Proposals - Eric Piette - 01-15-2021
Hi,
Yes when all the votes are done, the (is Decided ...) will be true only for the next move.
Regards,
Eric
RE: Proposals - slimy_asparagus - 01-15-2021
(01-15-2021, 07:46 AM)Eric Piette Wrote: Hi,
Yes when all the votes are done, the (is Decided ...) will be true only for the next move.
Regards,
Eric
Eric,
Thanks for the confirmation. Do we have an ETA on the next release?
Nicholas